Hachi was not a kido specialist; he is a kido master - his fighting style is entirely dependent on Kido. This could somehow be incorporated as well, like if a character is a specialist (uses a lot of Kido and has skill) and a 3-3, they can use kido from [Only admins are allowed to see this link] range with great effort (something they couldn't normally not do) - if the character is a master (their combat style equal to Kido) and a 3-3, they can use 90s range with great effort. As a note, even when you're in Tier 2, the 90s remain very very powerful, and thus, difficult to learn.

We need to review the application kido lists from now on, more closely.

Thanks for bringing up Rukia! This is great example. Rukia is a lieutenant-level combatant, and also a kido specialist; we see her throwing spells around like pro. However, the way she casts the enhanced Soukatsui spell, doesn't seem to tire her? This is an example of specialized Kido. Soukatsui and Soren Soukatsui are both stated to be Kuchiki family specialty, thus explaining how it wasn't so hard to cast it - her reiryoku is more trained to cast these spells, than others. As a note, she did still have to use incantation.

Finally, Aizen is far from Tier 2; he's Tier 1. See, he casually defeats multiple people at the same time, overpowers Tier 2 people with ease, and was only "defeated" by Ichigo after he became Mugetsu (1-1). Hyogyoku didn't make him suddenly more powerful; it made him immortal. The power he featured in the final clash, that wasn't the power of Hyogyoku; it was all him.

yes, but you said there wasn't such a thing as kido mastery or any sort of mastery for that matter, so I said specialist instead, but that wasn't my point, the point was that, on the maximum push, a lieutenant level shinigami could just about pull it off, but be left drained afterwards, kido specialist/mastery would help but not by much.

we do, but the point of this list is to get people to think about what kido they are able to get for what tiers so to make our job easier, not harder lol

yes, although I'm sure Rukia could use it without incantation, only it would be less controllable, but she used both Soren Soukatsui and bakudo number 61 at the same time with what I would say is a medium range from the tier list, meaning that yes, using both incantations for both of them meant when she used them, she was less tired, but using them without incantation? she would most likely show some signs of fatigue, which would place it around the medium tier.

that was a placeholder, but he wasn't at the max tier, probably, his tier was about the same as the head captain's, pre fusion state and probably went up a tier during fusion states, but Ichigo's mugetsu was beyond even Aizen's ability to detect both its spiritual pressure and went beyond his understanding (tier 1-1), which is why he got super angry at the thought of a human being able to surpass him, but he did and then got one shotted by Ichigo who managed to weaken him enough for the seal to take affect. So, saying that it didn't make him strong is incorrect as before he fused, souls near him didn't disintegrate in his presence or anything like that. so, yes, it did make him more powerful since that was the point of it and also because of his fusion, a side effect of it meant even separated from it, he gained immortality, but that was only a side effect, not its main power since because of Aizen's secret desire of being defeated by someone that was his equal; the Hyogyoku purposely had it so Aizen's power level was lower then dangai/Mugetsu Ichigo because of this secret desire to loose to someone his equal.

Fauna Yasenha wrote:yes, but you said there wasn't such a thing as kido mastery or any sort of mastery for that matter, so I said specialist instead, but that wasn't my point, the point was that, on the maximum push, a lieutenant level shinigami could just about pull it off, but be left drained afterwards, kido specialist/mastery would help but not by much.

we do, but the point of this list is to get people to think about what kido they are able to get for what tiers so to make our job easier, not harder lol

yes, although I'm sure Rukia could use it without incantation, only it would be less controllable, but she used both Soren Soukatsui and bakudo number 61 at the same time with what I would say is a medium range from the tier list, meaning that yes, using both incantations for both of them meant when she used them, she was less tired, but using them without incantation? she would most likely show some signs of fatigue, which would place it around the medium tier.

that was a placeholder, but he wasn't at the max tier, probably, his tier was about the same as the head captain's, pre fusion state and probably went up a tier during fusion states, but Ichigo's mugetsu was beyond even Aizen's ability to detect both its spiritual pressure and went beyond his understanding (tier 1-1), which is why he got super angry at the thought of a human being able to surpass him, but he did and then got one shotted by Ichigo who managed to weaken him enough for the seal to take affect. So, saying that it didn't make him strong is incorrect as before he fused, souls near him didn't disintegrate in his presence or anything like that. so, yes, it did make him more powerful since that was the point of it and also because of his fusion, a side effect of it meant even separated from it, he gained immortality, but that was only a side effect, not its main power since because of Aizen's secret desire of being defeated by someone that was his equal; the Hyogyoku purposely had it so Aizen's power level was lower then dangai/Mugetsu Ichigo because of this secret desire to loose to someone his equal.

I am sorry if I said that there was no mastery. I don't recall this, but if I did, I put it wrongly. And now that I think of it, kido mastery might not be the best word. A specialist is someone who uses kido a lot, and the next level would be someone whose combat skills are entirely dependent on Kido. Rukia would be a specialist, and Hachi would be the latter one. And as for the Kido specialization, it wouldn't just help by little; by specializing in Kido, you get access to techniques like dual casting and incantation abandonment, and in terms of kido-tier list, you would be able to use kido of greater level (if your tier's cap is 60s, then you can use 70s range kido).

Aaaand nope, still not convinced. A lieutenant level, without kido specialization = no 80s - 90s kido for them. Also, as I said, Kuchiki family specialized in Soukatsui/Soren Soukatsui, which is why Rukia was able to handle it like it was a medium level kido; Renji, in the other hand, would not be able to do the same, because of his poor skill with Kido.

And as for Aizen, his wish was to become the God (immortal, almighty, blah blah) - but Hyogyoku did not enhance his power level. He was, at all times, in par with Yamamoto, which was why he had to get rid of him, before he "ascended". Ichigo got to tier 1-1 in Mugetsu form, which was why he defeated Aizen (who had failed to become a God, since 1-1 is "the god-like level"). Aizen wasn't defeated because he wanted so.

But then again, I can be wrong. I, however, need proof of your statement before I take it as true.